Immanuel Lutheran Church Study Forum

Hello Bible Adventurists,

The good news is that if you are up to date with the readings, you have done better than most do with New Year’s Resolutions. The other good news is that if you have fallen behind, you can rejoin us at the start of Exodus and finish Job later, after we get to the really Good News.

There are a couple of things about Job that always catch my attention. First is that God seems to have staff meetings and Satan is invited. The second is that those guys used way more words than I would have used in their conversations. Imagine, this is a story that was probably originally passed down orally. I always wonder if the prose rhymed in Hebrew to make it easier to remember. The third thing that always surprises me is God’s use of “the Behemoth” and “the Leviathan” in His examples of creation. They always seem like dinosaurs or something I would not expect Job to be familiar with 6000 years ago when we don’t really have a concrete idea (or fossil record) of what they are. My study Bible suggests a hippopotamus, but the description does fit for me. Perhaps our archeological timelines aren’t as solid as many scientists would suggest.

Exodus is probably the most interesting book in the Old Testament to me. There is just so much God! Yes, the plagues and the Red Sea are miraculous, but there is so much more. Moses was 80 years old when he started this. (Charleton Heston never looks that old.) The scope of the Exodus is what amazes me. The total size of the Hebrew group was likely more than the population of New Hampshire to include the very young and the very old, and they had some livestock. Plus, they carried out all the stuff they used to build the Tabernacle. They couldn't move far or fast. The logistics for a group that size are overwhelming. Just consider the area required for everyone to scrape up a quart of mana and the water and (?) porta-potties required for 40 years. This stuff is easy to gloss over, but it is truly a miracle day after day after day. I did some math on that on the web page in the 2022 forum if you are interested. Plus, the Hebrews have a functional army at the times when they need it and when they cross the Jordan, so they had to be carrying weapons and training with them (since the soldiers would have been kids when they left Egypt). None of that is mentioned and not what I envision as part of ‘desert survival’. God truly was with His people. Be sure to look for His hand in all they do.

If you have any insights, questions, comments you would like to share, please either send them to the email group or add them to the forum ( https://immanuel365.net ). Thanks again for joining me in reading God’s word. I hope you are enjoying the adventure.

Tom Tighe

Job...

This is the hard truth about God, isn't it?

Paul warns us about the severity of God in Romans 11 regarding grafted in wild olive branch Gentiles becoming arrogant & boasful against the cut off cultivated olive branch Jews. He talks about the kindness and severity of God. Kindness towards Gentiles to graft them into the cultivated olive tree whilst removing the natural branches. To put the bow on top, he tells grafted in Gentiles to tremble in fear at that very severity of God because He can just as easily cut them off for their conceit against Jews. Yikes!

It makes me sick to my stomach when I read in Job what God allowed to happen against a man so upright that even God Himself was bragging about him. A God who makes deals w/ our adversary to ruin a man then watch his reaction to see if he was still an upright man devoted to God.

I have never met a Calvinist who directly experienced the severity of evil and human suffering. If they had, they certainly would NOT be a Calvinist for long as reality kicks in at some point. Just like we see in Job, it is easy to think of God a certain way and live a happy upright life when one is so blessed and sheltered.

I never understood people who think God will always protect them from harm in this world. Do they not read what I read about Him in scripture? I see Christians tortured and murdered, they don't see that? What about what happens to babies? I can't rely on such an asinine belief and it is not the basis of my faith. If it was, I would lose faith after reading Job.

The truth I have come to understand with some bitterness, is that God has an unpredictable severe side and one would do well to fear His severity. The hard truth is that God is not fair according to the standard in which mankind measures fairness, yet, He is just! What He did to Job was just? Yea, cuz He's God and He is never wrong. We are the wrong ones. Tell me that's not a fearful thing.

I don't ever want to experience His full severity. So yea, I try to be careful about judging and becoming resentful of Him when I read what He allowed to happen to Job. It is a struggle, though, when I read this book in my human understanding. I have to battle the betrayal, disgust and anger (from hurt & fear) I feel. Job has the tendency to force some of us to wrestle with trusting God, if we are truly honest with ourselves. I guess some folks can be like, "sux to be you, Job" and carry on without a bit of concern. Good luck with that! This is a reminder to me that my human fallible mind truly cannot comprehend God.

Job is tortured, his family murdered (yea, haSatan murdered them just to test Job's reaction). Replacing murdered children with new children simply doesn't make it "all better now" for me. I'm not okay with that but I HAVE to be. I have to accept that all of this is just because God allowed it all then gave Job some new peeps & livestock. I have to accept that my judgement of morality and fairness or my feelings are too inferior to discern the higher way's of God.

What's even more mind-blowing is that Job did nothing to earn that treatment (remind you of someone else?). It's not like in Roman's 11 where arrogant boastful Gentiles can earn His severity (and rightfully so).

Who does not feel the injury in your heart when we realize this side of God's character? Whose conscience is not violated? Whose stomach does not turn? It is straight up traumatic to realize our Father conspired with the wicked to allow a man to be harmed for no humanly understood reason other than to test him and watch his reaction. "Was he still loyal to God or not" kind of stuff.

I am so grateful for Yeshua/Jesus and what He went through to save us. I hide under His tallit from what I know I deserve or from what my Father may decide to do to me regardless. It grieved God to allow the affliction of His only Son, not so sure it grieved God to afflict Job.

I know my only security is in clinging to Yeshua/Jesus, He is all I have to try to shelter myself from the severity of God, which I know I deserve. But.. who can hide from God, really? Only Yeshua/Jesus defends us in His courts against the truth of ourselves which haSatan will be sure to expose in order to condemn us.

Grace is beautiful. Grace, grace, grace!

As far as I see it, God owes us followers nothing on this earth cept to keep His promise of life after death. And that's only because of His Son. We can pray and call on Him and He may or may not send His angels to help, protect or heal us. Likewise, He may or may not decide to let haSatan afflict us. Who knows? The only guaranree is eternal life if we remain faithful in His Son, properly fear God and abide in His grace through Messiah Yeshua / Christ Jesus.

Job… wow… heavy subject. Job used to be my favorite book of the Bible, but now I find I can no longer have a favorite, because I find them all to be so incredibly important. I have to keep reminding myself that we are not absolutely sure that the man Job actually existed. I tend to think that he was a historical figure, but some things about the story, specifically God’s conversation with satan, could not possibly have been known about by the writer, UNLESS God directly put it into his mind and heart to write about. Of course, most of us DO believe the Bible to be divinely inspired and that includes me. So what are we to make of it? Very deep question. I think what God would like to have from us is unconditional trust and love similar to the unconditional love and grace He offers us. It doesn’t mean we will have a life of trouble-free ease, but that we will always recognize His hand, in all that happens. We will always be able to give thanks for everything that happens and we are instructed to give thanks in all things—in pain or in pleasure. When we are grateful, fear goes away. I also believe that the trajectory of our lives tends to follow the train of our thoughts, attitudes, and expectations, whether positive or fearful. It suddenly hit me while rereading Job this time, that he was a bit of a worry wart. He was regularly praying for each of his children, JUST IN CASE they had sinned! Talk about micromanaging your offspring!

The other thing that occurred to me this time is that I don’t feel I need to completely exonerate God from responsibility. I fully see that satan is also a created being who is reporting to God in the story. Satan may have carried out the evil against Job, but it was with God’s permission. Job actually represents a type of Christ. Both were allowed to suffer by God and, moreover, Jesus was/is God. There is something very important here that speaks to my desire to know and understand everything. The answer to that is that I can’t possibly know or understand, and therefore can’t judge. I can only trust, and I can be grateful for God’s grace.

Peace in the Lord…
Marina

Hi Julie,
Those are some hard observations from Job, and I might frame some of them a little differently. First there is no doubt God is sovereign and can justly do whatever He wants. The question, then is what does He want and how does that relate to Job. I always remember He created us to have a relationship with Him. That relationship isn’t so we can cower in fear at His power and authority.

So why then would He do these mean things to Job? I think the answer to that is in the answer He gave to Job, but first let me talk about Job’s children. These ‘kids’ were adults. God did not murder them. satan killed them, although God did allow it. It wasn’t a punishment or “Hey, look what I can do” kind of thing. Job’s children regularly held these family feasts, for which Job felt he had to offer sacrifices for atonement. I’m not trying to blame the victims here, just saying we don’t really know any other circumstances about them or how they fit into God’s plan. It may have been ‘their time’ even if Satan hadn’t been attacking Job. That leads into my main thought. God basically tells Job he doesn’t know the big picture. I would say neither do we. As we read this story from Job’s perspective it is disheartening. We don’t know how these events impacted others in Job’s family, his community, or generations of readers like us in the future in accordance with His plan.

Finally, I have to point out that satan has been given authority of (at least part of) the earth. If he didn’t he couldn’t offer the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus during the temptation in the wilderness. That’s probably why satan gets to come to the staff meeting. This starts to deal with the ‘Sons of God’ (the Elohim?) and the rebellion in heaven and spiritual warfare and other things not really talked about a lot in the canonical Bible. We have no idea what impact Job’s faithful suffering had on satan or his other plans. That could be huge, but is not really in our realm or included in the stuff we are supposed to know.

That’s my take on it.

Tom

Good insights. Their are many, many, many different theological views people get from Job and I do consider them all, looking for relief from what I can't comprehend about our Father.

haSatan (the Adversary) is a created being and is subject to Elohim/Yahweh (God). He talks w/ God about those whom God covers. We see this in Luke when Yeshua/Jesus warns Kefa/Peter (Simon bar-Jona) that haSatan has asked Elohim to sift Kefa as wheat but that Yeshua/Jesus will pray for him. THE Messiah will pray for Kefa b/c haSatan is requesting to ruin him? Yes. He will PRAY for Kefa and yes, there is a conversation that took place between Elohim and The Adversary about Kefa.What would have happened to Kefa if Yeshua/Jesus did not pray for him? He would not have returned to encourage his brothers in Messiah. His denial of Yeshua/Jesus would have destroyed him.
Judas is an example of the self destruction that takes place when faced w/ betraying Yeshua/Jesus. THAT is the nature of haSatan. The nature of Yeshua vs the nature of haSatan being displayed in Kefa and Judas. We see both in Job.

The nature of God is to give life, even restore life. The nature of our Father is to give us good gifts and not to destroy us or unjustly harm us. The nature of our Father is to be loved by us and to love us.

haSatan likes to remind our Father that mankind only loves Him because it benefits them. Job was a man that our Father put His trust in to prove haSatan wrong. This is a part of the character of God I am too human to understand. It hurts me to imagine Job's pain because he TRUSTED GOD!

God gave permission for this to happen to Job. That is something He did and is a part of His character now. We have to grapple with this as humans. The fact is that God is perfect and all He does is just. So, that being the case, it is clear we simply cannot comprehend His ways.

Job does say he is closer to our Father since he was "tested" by haSatan. Notice everything was doubled when restored to Job except his children? Maybe that's b/c his first 10 children are awaiting him in heaven. Nobody did anything wrong, not Job, not his offspring. This all happened b/c our Father was proving to haSatan that He is loved genuinely by a human.

All,

This is a tricky discussion, and I think there are kernels truth in what others have said. I will try my best not to repeat what has already been written.

I think the question everyone here is tiptoeing around is this: Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? It's a question as old as time, and is one that has been constantly used for slander, speculation, and all sorts of abuses against Holy Scripture. It is also truly an unanswerable question, but not for the reason you might suspect.

See, the thing we must start with is: what is a good person? All of us think we know what a "good person" is. In fact, I suspect most of us have a certain image of what one looks like. Usually, it looks a lot like ourselves—someone who tips the nice waitress at the restaurant, votes the right way, pays taxes, donates to the right causes, goes to church on Sunday, prays before eating supper, is well-mannered, likeable, and an all-around standout guy (or gal). Heck, some of us go above and beyond and do really great stuff like reading the Bible every day and having theological discussions on the internet. Maybe to be a good person you should even be like Job and throw your kids an awesome birthday party every year.

So all is well and good, and generally we're pretty pleased with ourselves right up until we start taking the Scriptures seriously. That's because, if we're honest, it doesn't take much reading to realize a terrible truth: God doesn't seem to be too impressed with "good people". For that matter, even a lot of really fantastically great people in the Bible are seemingly handed over to evil. Actually, a lot of the time God seems to be really arbitrary, irrational, and severe. Others have mentioned Job, Peter, and Judas; I'd add to the list Moses (punished for striking a rock?), Isaac, Jacob, John the Baptist, and Stephen. That isn't even to mention all of the Egyptian children, Canaanites, Midianites, and the entire planet at the time of the Flood. All of these were totally annihilated: completely wiped out by this supposedly good God without even a second thought. I mean, what's the deal with this guy? How is this whole thing even remotely fair? Am I simply at the whim of an out-of-control tyrant who pushes the pieces of creation around for His own amusement like some undisciplined child playing a massive board game?

That reality, when you get right down to it, is absolutely terrifying.

But it is not the truth. The thing we are missing is that our entire idea of a "good person" is one that we invented. It is not the same as God's idea of a good person.

So where can we find what God's image of a good person is? Is it in Job? I think not. Actually, I would posit that the place we must go to answer this question is Exodus chapter 20: the Ten Commandments. This is where we learn what God's idea of a good person is. God says it plainly right in the middle "I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my Commandments." (Exodus 20:5-6) So to be a good person, all you have to do is to keep the Ten Commandments (and love God, which, incidentally, is the First Commandment). Easy, right?

Not so fast. We need to keep reading. Take the First Commandment. It's all well and good to say we have no other Gods, but Scripture makes clear that this is nowhere near enough (Deut. 6:4-5, Psalm 118:8, Prov. 3:5-6, Matt. 22:36-37). Rather, we need to actually do it with our entire being. God demands that our entire heart, soul, and strength be devoted to Him and no others. This we must do our entire lives, without fail. Have you ever loved your mother and father more than God? Have you ever put your trust in your 401(k) account, or your charm and good looks, or your skills and training, or your modern medicine to get you out of trouble? Or, if you like, take the Sixth Commandment. "Aha!" you say, "This one I have surely kept, for I have never committed adultery in my entire life." But Jesus says "everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matt. 5:28). That's right, to keep the Commandments, you need to go your whole life without even looking at anyone lustfully. Or the Fifth Commandment: perhaps you have not physically murdered, but Christ says that you must also never be angry with or insult your brother (Matt. 5:22).

Okay, so maybe we have committed some tiny infractions here and there. But what does that have to do with anything? Surely that doesn't excuse the unjust behavior we see of God, especially in weird books like Job!

On the contrary, it has absolutely everything to do with God, because it shows us how God is perfectly just. He does not accept excuses. He does not let things slide. We must keep reading. Soon enough, we'll encounter the most terrifying verses in the Bible, such as "whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it" (James 2:8), "as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct" (1 Peter 1:15), and "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). This is what it actually means to have a good and righteous God: He demands absolute perfection. He is perfectly just. His commandments are not simply arbitrary edicts, they are the very reflection of His holy and righteous and perfect nature. They are the order God demands for His creation who must do it; nothing less is acceptable. To break a single iota or dot of the Law is to commit a capital offense of the most grievous nature against the God who created you. And the one who breaks it deserves not just death, but eternal suffering after death in a place removed from all good. It is truly hell: the worst thing imaginable.

All this ought to lead us to the same sobering conclusion that Paul makes in Romans "For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (3:22-23). This idea is not novel, in fact, it is the same one expressed by David in Psalm 53. In other words, we have successfully figured out why the question is the wrong question. "Why do bad things happen to good people?" is predicated on the notion that there are good people. In fact, there are none whatsoever. Not even Job.

And lest we fall into the trap of blaming God for any of this, we need only to look to the Garden of Eden to see that this problem is not His fault. Our first parents did not trust God, nor did they obey him. They ate the fruit of the tree He commanded them not to eat. This came after being tempted by Satan who himself had already rebelled against God. Because we are children of these sinful parents, not only do we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin but also his love of sin and distrust of God's Law. We are born "children of wrath", fully infected with a Stage 4 sin-disease. We love to do what is wrong and hate what is right, just like everyone else. Even this love of evil taken by itself is sin, regardless of whether we act on it (which, without fail, we do too).

Someone who knew this reality all too well was Job. He arose early in the morning to offer offerings because he knew that both he and his children were sinners, "It may be that my children have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts." (1:5). In fact, the situation is much more than a "may be", its actually more like a "definitely." All have sinned. See futher: Job 6:24, 7:21, 42:6 for places where Job admits that he is a sinner.

This is heavy stuff indeed. Deep down, however, we all know it to be true. Scripture teaches that God gave each of us a conscience and has written the Law on our hearts so that we might know the difference between right and wrong. Because we have not kept the Law, this conscience convicts us. Being honest with our own standing before God is nothing short of sheer terror: The conscience is mortified, terrorized by the realization that since God is a righteous God, and we are not righteous, we deserve His wrath.

The terrified conscience, however, is a gift from God. In high-fallutin' churchy jargon we sometimes call it "contrition". Contrition isn't fun, and it doesn't make us feel good, but it is a good gift nonetheless. Why? Because it is the only way to receive Jesus Christ.

Friends, hear the Good News of the Gospel: God does not leave us to deal with contrition ourselves! No sir! Instead, despite His creation turning away from Him and sinning against Him in thought, word, and deed, He made a promise. He promised that he would rescue his creation. He would do it. His creation cannot, for all have sinned. So who can? Only God.

And God kept His promise. "For God so loves the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him may not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Jesus is the exception. He is the only man ever to be without sin, yet he died the death of a sinner anyway, because our sin cannot go unpunished. "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:23). We have a Redeemer in Christ: one who pays and has already paid the penalty that we cannot ever pay.

It is His grace alone that saves us, not our pitiful attempts at fulfilling the Law. But we still need the Law, so that we may know and believe that we need a Savior in the first place. For the one who trusts in his own works has no need of Christ. Only the one who acknowledges his own sin, the one who first knows his own guilt, can ever have faith in Jesus as his Lord and Savior. This is why Lutherans are so particular about the distinction between Law and Gospel. As I teach children in Sunday School, the key is S.O.S. The Law "Shows Our Sin". The Gospel "Shows Our Savior".

In this Savior is our trust, and in Him alone. All others lead to death, but He leads to life. Job knew it, because Job was a Christian. Right here, in the tender loving arms of Jesus Christ, we find the proper understanding of Job 1:1. Job is not "upright and blameless" because of his works. He is not "upright and blameless" because he kept the Ten Commandments perfectly. He is "upright and blameless" because he has been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ, cleansed of his sin, redeemed, sanctified, and blameless in God's sight. His sin has been atoned for. It is finished.

Then what of this whole business of God and Satan? Why does God seemingly betray Job to Satan, as if to cruelly test him?

The first realization we have already covered: While we are still on the earth, we are still sinners. Therefore, neither we nor Job ever receive any fate less than we deserve. All that we have we receive only by God's grace, and for whatever we have we give Him thanks. We ought not expect more than He gives us.

The second realization is the Gospel: God knows that Job is a Christian, and the Christian can endure all suffering and even death because of the sure knowledge he has that he is redeemed. "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:28). Nothing that all of the evil in the world or even Satan Himself can throw our way will ever be able to negate our identity in Christ and our assurance that we will spend all eternity with Him in His Kingdom. "For I know that my Redeemer lives" (Job 19:25) is Job's confession of faith, trusting that he too will partake in the life of the resurrection on the last day because of the resurrection of Christ.

The third realization: The test is not directed towards Job. God is actually testing Satan. The tempter, in his sinfulness, thinks that he can convince Job to doubt God. Later, he even thinks he can tempt Jesus. But he cannot, because Christ is victorious. Satan has been defeated, and he is now bound. He has no power over us that is not overcome by the power of Christ. The true purpose of God in Job 1 is to use evil for His good. He allows Satan to tempt Job precisely so He can show Satan to be an utter fool. Ultimately, this is exactly what happens. Job is drawn to repentance. Satan is unsuccessful as he always is when he goes up against the Almighty God.

I leave you with the second article of the Apostles' Creed:

"And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day He rose again from the dead, He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.

What does this mean?

I believe that Jesus Christ, true God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, and also true man, born of the Virgin Mary, is my Lord, who has redeemed me, a lost and condemned person, purchased and won me from all sins, from death, and from the power of the devil; not with gold or silver, but with His holy, precious blood and with His innocent suffering and death, that I may be His own and live under Him in His kingdom, and serve him in everlasting righteousness, innocence, and blessedness, just as He is risen from the dead, lives and reigns to all eternity. This is most certainly true."

I hope you find this useful.

In Christ,
Paul

P.S. I also wrote two pieces on Job last year on this forum, which you can read here and here.

All great ways to think of such a difficult book.

At the end of wrestling with this hard subject, Job brings me to admit that we are to praise God even in our suffering b/c there is a bigger picture at play that we don't know about many times. Praise Him even in our affliction b/c everything He does is just! Our idea of God when blessed and protected is reframed when we experience life opposite of such blessings and protection.

The severity of God keeps me as humble as I know how to be.