Immanuel Lutheran Church Study Forum

In this morning's reading (1/5/22), we see Abram take a second wife to conceive and bear Ishmael. Not only did it not seem there was a punishment for this, but God blessed Abram and renamed him Abraham. Conversely, when Abram entered Egypt, he basically sold his wife to Pharaoh for his own safety and wealth. The Pharaoh was punished, but Abram was not.

Is this not inconsistent? Why or why not?

Was this acceptable behavior prior to the The Ten Commandments and Law's of Moses?

In Gen 4:19 Lamech is the first documented polygamist. He was from Cain's lineage and was not a Godly man. Abram's case is different. He was trying to find a legitimate heir for his (pretty significant) estate after it was clear Sarai was barren and he is approaching the end of his expected life. Sarai sends Hagar in for the purpose of an heir. Abram didn't say 'no'. I'm not sure this is polygamy because I don't think he actually ever considered Hagar as a wife. I'm not sure its adultery because it was at Sarai's instructions. Its a really weird arrangement. I don't know how unusual of an arrangement this was because of the inheritance rules of the day. I do know it didn't turn out well as Hagar immediately wanted to have wife status above Sarai and that caused a lot of discord. We see Jacob follow a similar path, but he was tricked into marrying the wrong girl. That's really strange but led to his polygamy. Then his 2 wives competed for favor by having more kids by themselves and their (concubine) servants. The whole concubine thing is a puzzle to me.

The main narrative with Abraham is salvation through grace alone. He pulled the same stunt with his wife twice. Isaac did it too. There was nothing Abraham had going besides his faith in God. He was full of sin. It makes no sense that God chose him....me.. anyone.
Not sure how to use this page yet, so I'm not sure I'm even responding to the correct inquiry

Looks like you've got the posting figured out fine.

Abraham was declared righteous for his faith. Abram just picked up and left everything he knew, except God, when God asked. Abraham circumcised every man in his camp the very day God told him to. He was a man that had faith with action.

I think the polygamy and concubine question lacks cultural context, but I dont really have any to offer and I don't think that's an excuse. I dont think it is God's plan or standard, but we don't see a formal prohibition. I'm not sure even Levitical laws adrdress polygamy. David was a man of God and understood the Levitical laws, and he had many wives and concubines. Solomon asked for wisdom and he still married more than one, a lot more. We will see a lot more polygamy by people we consider good. Abraham is not alone in this practice.

Some interesting comments, thank you.

What is the REAL source of the Middle East conflict?

It comes from this.

Also, are there consequences to Abraham and Sarah not being faithful to God in the first place, and took matters into their own hands (bedroom) ... I think that the Middle East is a mess, mainly because of this.

From Army War College 2004, 80% of ALL losses and deaths due to warfare was within 1000 mile radius of current day Baghdad. It's called, "The Ring of Death."

As we all know, the ancestor of the Jewish race is Isaac and the ancestor of the Arabs is Ishmael. If you read the Quran, we find that the very first "transgressor" in the Islamic faith is "Isaac" ... Abraham is also the father of the Islamic faith, and they claim that Abraham went to kill Ishmael on the rock as a sacrifice, not Isaac. Both claim the land and the promises given to Abraham.

I think Ishmael as a teenager being thrown out (with your mom Hagar) from your family and left in the desert to die would instill real hatred against Isaac and Sarah. Ishmael is the genetic father of most Arabs. (A large nation will be made form him, and he will be a wild donkey of a man).

There is a short Air Force War college paper on the roots of the Middle East conflict. Here is a link to it, some graphics are not bad. The writing is terrible however.

https://headexplosionfx.com/Islamic%20World%20View.pdf

In 1992 while fighting with the Saudi Air Force, I asked a Saudi prince why he hated the Jews, he said, "Those who throw their mothers out to die, and try to steal the blessings of the first born are thieves of God's promise."

In 2001 while fighting with a Israeli Air Force I asked one of the pilots, "Why do you hate the Arabs?" He answered, "Those illegitimate bastard descendants who steal God's promises are not worthy."

I mean, I can hold a grudge, but 6000 years ago? It really doesn't matter that we don't understand or believe this is the source of the fight, but they do.

Bottom line ... they are all cousins. The Middle East is a long, long family fight.

Waylon,
Fascinating paper, where did you ever find such an obscure resource?:)

In today's reading with Abimelech, it seems like taking another man's wife is a mortal sin.

Guest wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:05 pm The main narrative with Abraham is salvation through grace alone. He pulled the same stunt with his wife twice. Isaac did it too. There was nothing Abraham had going besides his faith in God. He was full of sin. It makes no sense that God chose him....me.. anyone.
Not sure how to use this page yet, so I'm not sure I'm even responding to the correct inquiry

I really like this explanation. This was made very clear today in our reading when God's angels took Lot by the hand when he hesitated to leave Sodom. We stumble, and God picks up the pieces.

Good point

Don't feel qualified to comment much on the polygamy issue except that there were many reasons for it back in OT and even NT times including redeeming the wife of a deceased kinsman who had no progeny by taking her as a wife and begetting children by her to continue the kinsman's family line (an example was Ruth in the OT). Even today, there are arguments for polygamy in some countries where otherwise women and children would die enmasse because there would be no one to provide for them. However, although it was allowed in some instances, it was never, according to my understanding, considered or promoted as ideal by God.

As far as Ishmael and Isaac, however, it is an open and shut case in two ways. First, God showed his great love and mercy by blessing both. And second, He established the covenant only with Isaac.

We see this in Genesis 17:20-21:"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”

It would be from the line of Isaac that Noah, Moses, King David, and the Messiah would come. Whatever the Quran states that differs from the Torah and the Bible would be hard to justify in light of the fact that the Torah, same as first 5 books of the Bible, dates back to the time of Moses or about 1500 BC whereas the Quran is a relative newcomer only dating to about 600 AD.

Today it seems Jacob makes polygamy an art form. Note which mom bore which sons and see if it impacts into how the tribes are arranged in the Exodus camp layout.

I'm always baffled at how you wouldn't realize you married the wrong sister until the morning after.

...as a humorous aside. I once heard a rabbi discussing the Hebrew language and issues with interpreting it into English. He said Gen 29:17 was more literally 'Leah was difficult to see,' which is usually interpreted as she had poor vision. The rabbi said it more likely meant she was hard to look at, or homely. Read it in context:)